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'I struggled to build a connection with Steve Borthwick... I'm not the only one': BEN YOUNGS on his old 'rigid' England boss, why he loves 'old-school' Eddie Jones and why he'd never stop his kids playing rugby

Ben Youngs looks out over the shifting tides of Blakeney Quay. Narrow creeks snake through the mudflats. Flocks of pink-footed geese fly overhead and oyster catchers tiptoe across the marshland in search of their next tasty morsel.

Youngs’ Novembers are different these days. The calm autumnal skies of North Norfolk feel a million miles away from the beery whiff of Twickenham, where the former No 9 brought fire and thunder as England’s most-capped rugby player.

‘I’ve not become a rambler or a twitcher just yet,’ Youngs laughs, walking alongside a few moored-up sailing boats, with faded paint and coiled ropes. 'The kids love mud-sliding on the banks over there. They come back filthy! 

'When I retired, we wanted to move closer to the family. The kids can come down here and go on their grandpa's boat, go to see the seals, mudslide, paddle board. Then we can drive 20 minutes inland to the family farm to ride the tractor and charge around with pigs and cows.’

We find a table at the local hotel to discuss retirement, second homes, his fractured relationship with Steve Borthwick and the trials and tribulations of English rugby which are sharply in focus with Australia at Twickenham on Sunday in the Nations Championship, during which he will be writing weekly columns for Daily Mail Sport.

He politely declines the crab sandwiches and local fruitcake – ‘You’ll have to Photoshop any double chins!’ – but settles into the sofa with a warming flat white.

Ben Youngs loves life back in his home county of Norfolk. 'Living out here is joyous,' he says, 'but you're in the a**e-end of nowhere'
Ben Youngs loves life back in his home county of Norfolk. 'Living out here is joyous,' he says, 'but you're in the a**e-end of nowhere'   
Youngs celebrates winning the Six Nations Grand Slam under Eddie Jones back in 2016
Youngs celebrates winning the Six Nations Grand Slam under Eddie Jones back in 2016 

‘I feel like I've transitioned out the game well,’ says the 37-year-old. ‘When I finished, I probably said “Yes” to too many things. I was here, there, everywhere. Living out here is joyous but you're in the a**e-end of nowhere. 

'If you’re doing a lunch in London, it’s an hour’s drive to Norwich, an hour and 45 minutes train to London, then you’re on the tube from Liverpool Street. I had to work out a schedule that suits me and the family.

‘Loads of lads really struggle with retirement and I understand why. I don’t miss the day-to-day grind of it. I never loved the gym. What I miss is the camaraderie and the pressure. 

'As a sportsman, you’re always building towards something. You’re judged every single week. When you’re out of it, you don’t get that constant drive and feedback. Now the biggest pressure is getting the kids to school on time.

‘I look at this autumn series and see England are under the pump. That was the sweet spot for me. I loved it when our backs were against the wall. You see the Aussies rolling into town and that’s the bit you miss.’

These days, Youngs’ exercise regime is limited to a few gym sessions at Gresham’s School. He sees his older brother, Tom, the former hooker, on the morning drop-off and they occasionally drive to the East Midlands to watch Leicester Tigers. A coaching career never appealed – ‘they all look miserable’ – but Youngs is forging a reputation as one of the game’s sharpest pundits.

‘We didn’t learn much about England over the summer, did we?’ he says. ‘They have got to decide what they're trying to be. This time last year, we saw a very conservative, pragmatic way of playing. It suited the trends in the game. It worked but you can't stand still.

‘Now the game has swung in favour of teams that hold on to the ball. If you look at the Six Nations, England went from a very conservative way of playing, to an all-singing and all-dancing performance against France in the final game. 

'I feel like I've transitioned out the game well,’ says the 37-year-old. ‘When I finished, I probably said “Yes” to too many things. I was here, there, everywhere'
'I feel like I've transitioned out the game well,’ says the 37-year-old. ‘When I finished, I probably said “Yes” to too many things. I was here, there, everywhere'
Youngs won a record 127 caps for England in a 13-year career that ran from 2010 to 2023
Youngs won a record 127 caps for England in a 13-year career that ran from 2010 to 2023 

'But it was a free hit. England have got to settle on an identity because you can't go from one extreme to the other and expect results. In the PREM, those Northampton players are bloody brilliant to watch. Then they move to a gameplan (with England) that doesn't allow them to play that way. The vision and alignment has to come from the top. 

'England’s style has to be one that asks questions of the opposition defence, which means they need to go multi-phase. They need to use the talents they have to build pressure with the ball in hand, not through chasing kicks and set-piece.’

Every now and then, eyes peer over from hotel guests. Youngs is one of English rugby’s household names and unknowing residents are surprised to see him in this quiet corner of the country. 

During his 18-year career, he was coached by some of the game’s biggest personalities: Martin Johnson, Michael Cheika, Eddie Jones, Andy Farrell, Borthwick.

‘Certain coaches will say, “This is how we play, this is how we impose it on the opposition, and it's for them to stop us”. Cheik, Eddie and Andy would have that mindset. Obviously, there are tweaks from week to week, but they double down on it. The All Blacks do it, the Springboks do it.

‘Steve has a different mindset. It’s more: “How do we stop them? How do we set up a gameplan to make sure the opposition plays left-handed?” It’s a totally different mindset which means you see these different styles from England each week. 

'That’s why they don’t blow many teams away. It’s more conservative and more risk-averse. I would like to see England go: “This is what we are, this is what’s coming."

‘I played under Steve at Leicester and our gameplan was effective. We had a very good pack and Steve didn’t see the value in things like quick taps and multi-phase. The gameplan is presented, backed up with some data and footage, and that’s what you do.    

'It won us a league title but it was so rigid to play in. When you’re winning games, you can accept playing that style. But when you’re losing games in that style, you become frustrated because you feel like you’ve not really had a crack. By all accounts, there was a lot of head-bashing over the summer.’

‘Steve has a "How do we stop them?" mindset. Which means you see these different styles from England each week. It’s more risk-averse'
‘Steve has a "How do we stop them?" mindset. Which means you see these different styles from England each week. It’s more risk-averse'
‘I played under Steve at Leicester,' says Youngs, 'and our gameplan was effective. It won us a league title but it was so rigid to play in'
‘I played under Steve at Leicester,' says Youngs, 'and our gameplan was effective. It won us a league title but it was so rigid to play in'

So will Steve be popping in for a pint of Wherry on his holidays? ‘You don't really aspire to go for a beer with your coach, right? No player wants that. 

'But what you want is that connection that makes you feel valued, like the coach is with you. You want to feel valued, inspired, motivated, pushed, challenged. I struggled to build a relationship or connection with Steve but I don’t think I’m the only person who had that challenge.'

Indeed, in his autobiography, Youngs questioned Borthwick's 'basic human decency' over the lack of concern he showed about a terminal illness in the Youngs family. 

‘I want to see England succeed,' Youngs adds. 'I want them to win the World Cup. I care about the guys in that squad. The RFU have backed Steve through to the World Cup and I don’t see that changing now. 

'If they were going to make changes, it would have happened after the Six Nations. If Bill Sweeney, Conor O’Shea and whoever else felt like Steve was the right person then, you have to see that through. If he suddenly isn’t the right person, then nor are they. That’s on them. I don’t see them changing anything because they would probably have to go too.’    

Youngs’ face lights up when he talks about Jones. The Australian poked fun at Youngs’ weight after the 2015 World Cup, famously chucking a bag of Haribo sweets at him in a one-to-one meeting.

‘Everyone says things about Eddie to fit their narrative,' says Youngs. 'Yes, he challenged. Yes, he pushed. Yes, he could be confrontational. But I liked that. He wasn’t for everyone but he was certainly the best England coach I had. 

'You never left the room with any grey areas. He was straight to the point and had a good sense of humour.

‘On our 2018 tour of South Africa, we were facing the same kind of heat England are facing now. Our Six Nations campaign had been awful and one of the South African fans was giving it out to him after we lost the first Test in Johannesburg. 

'I struggled to build a relationship or connection with Steve but I don’t think I’m the only person who had that challenge'
'I struggled to build a relationship or connection with Steve but I don’t think I’m the only person who had that challenge'
'Eddie Jones wasn’t for everyone,' says Youngs, 'but he was certainly the best England coach I had'
'Eddie Jones wasn’t for everyone,' says Youngs, 'but he was certainly the best England coach I had'

'Eddie was asked about it by the press and he ridiculously said the fan was asking him if he’d tried the South African red wine. Fast forward 48 hours and crates of wine were turning up to our hotel in Umhlanga. You had to squeeze past bottles of red on the way into his office on that tour. He’d always say, “Take one on your way out!”.

‘Danny Cipriani won the last Test for us and the pressure came off. At the end of that tour, Rassie Erasmus gave Eddie a magnum of Stellenbosch red. I said, “Another bottle of red hey, Eddie?”. "You have it," he replied. "Make sure you cork it with the boys.” 

'I remember seeing this massive crate of Eddie’s wine getting loaded up the next morning to be sent home!

‘He was old-school and good company. In that group, there were some well-established Test players. You never felt like you were too far off. We’d had an 18-game winning streak and we’d won a Grand Slam. We knew it was just a rough patch (when we struggled).

'You look at the current England team and it’s hard to know what they’ve got in the bank. There’s a lot of young guys there but there is a huge amount of talent. If they beat Australia then that pressure comes off.’

Youngs has opinions on everything. Future England captain? ‘Ollie Chessum’s next in line.' Future England coach? ‘Rob Baxter’s got to be in the conversation.’ The second-home stamp duty that has brought Norfolk’s property market to a grinding halt? ‘Scrap it!’

He changes tack to talk about Tom and Jack Willis, the back-row siblings who ended their England careers in favour of moves to France. ‘England should pick them,' Youngs says. 'Moving to Toulouse has made Jack a better player. 

'I don’t think everyone would leave the PREM if they changed the rules. How are we in a situation where the two-time Top 14 Player of the Year isn’t playing for England? It doesn’t make sense. 

'I had a chance to move to Toulouse in 2020. It would have been a great gig, sitting behind Antoine Dupont!'
'I had a chance to move to Toulouse in 2020. It would have been a great gig, sitting behind Antoine Dupont!'
'England have got to settle on an identity because you can't go from one extreme to the other and expect results,' says Youngs
'England have got to settle on an identity because you can't go from one extreme to the other and expect results,' says Youngs 

'I had a chance to move to Toulouse in 2020. It would have been a great gig, sitting behind Antoine Dupont! The Six Nations campaign got cut short because of Covid and I got stuck on 99 caps. I always wanted to get to 100 caps, so although the offer was on the table, I didn’t take it.’

Youngs is very much a home boy. He retired as a one-club man and now has two daughters, Ettie and Billie, and a son, Boris, who is running out on the same windswept pitches for Holt Under 12s where his dad fell in love with the game. 

‘He (Boris) plays on the wing but the only time they really stand in position is off a scrum. It’s chaos. It’s like herding cats. They’ll be re-enacting WWE wrestling they’ve seen on TV the night before. He loves it. 

'You hear a lot of old players saying “I’d never want my kids playing the game” but I’m not one of them. Boz gets to charge around in the fresh air for an hour-and-a-half, have a hot dog and chips, then charge around some more. It just works nicely, doesn’t it?’

Ben Youngs, England's most-capped player, will be writing for Daily Mail Sport throughout the Nations Championship 

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